On the Gardenerd Tip of the Week Podcast this week we chat with Christina Chung of Fluent Garden. Chris has a passion for growing perennial edible plants and designing food forests or “layered” gardens for residential-scale properties in Metro Vancouver, Canada.
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today. Now on with the show. Welcome everyone to the
Gardenerd Tip of the Week Podcast where experts
from around the world talk shop share stories and
offer their favorite tip. I’m your host Christy
Wilhelmi. This week we’re chatting with Chris
Chung of Fluent Garden. Chris has a passion for
growing perennial edible plants and designing food
forests or layered Gardens for residential scale
properties in Metro Vancouver Canada she’s been
the program coordinator and instructor for the
horiculture technician Foundation program through
the UBC Botanic Gardens horiculture training
program and she’s written a new book The layered
Edible Garden a beginner’s guide to creating a
productive food Garden layer by layer thanks for
being here Chris thanks for having me Christie uh
the folks at Cool Springs press sent me your book
and I thought oh this is going to be fun and I I
think you know while we’ve had permaculture guests
on the podcast before I really like the way that
you use concrete examples and language around the
concepts of a layered Garden so what Drew you to
stacking functions and designing layered Gardens
in the first place yeah I think a few things um
led me to this idea of really trying to simplify
um as you said like a lot of this lingo around
permaculture and building guilds um when I was
first introduced to permaculture and the term food
Force I was actually designing um a small scale
food gardening course while I was uh an instructor
at UBC botanical garden and my manager at the time
he’s like can you look into this it’s this really
hot topic I think it’s worth checking out and at
the time I had no idea because I was teaching
people how to grow in rows in raised beds you
know more traditional Styles especially for um new
food Growers and once I started digging into this
topic, Christy. I could not stop because I’m like
this makes so much sense because it allows people
to appreciate the plants around their garden
and it really kind of nudges someone into the
world of researching different plants that could
work for their Garden so there was that element
um and also when I was doing consulting work um
mostly with coaching one-on-one in Vancouver a
lot of the clients really wanted to build Gardens
um especially for their children you know we want
we want an apple tree we want you know blueberries
but how do we do it I’ve got limited time and uh
we’ve got a small patio how can we build something
that’s beautiful and that we can enjoy so it was
mixing bits and pieces of this and realizing that
I couldn’t really use academic language to try to
explain these things so it was great practice
for me to find the right ter terminology and
ways to explain things so that the everyday home
Gardener could get excited about researching and
trying new things and not being afraid of just
playing in the garden so that’s really where it
came from and just me being in the garden as well
yeah and have you always gardened or did was this
something that because you mentioned that you’re
you know we know that you’re you’re an educator
at a botanic garden so was gardening always part
of your life or did you find it later on uh one
of my my Fondest Memories was actually digging up
potatoes in my childhood home with my dad I think
everyone has something like that um where whether
it’s potatoes or tomatoes it’s usually one of
those two or lettuce um and I remember that memory
but then there was this whole period of this Gap I
can’t remember specifics but I always had access
to a garden which I was I’m just so grateful for
um and it wasn’t until um when my son was born
roughly oh my gosh he’s almost 10 um that we had
a garden space in our home and I’m like you know
this is kind of fun let’s start growing some neat
things outside just get him outside appreciating
I know insects and flowers and that’s really how
it all started again and then shortly afterwards
I decided to uh formalize my training and that’s
when I joined that um horiculture training at
the botanical garden and I’m like this is this
is definitely my jam I yeah and then that’s how
I really started to build my garden thankfully we
had space and I just kept experimenting and it
really hasn’t stopped yeah and I think it’s an
addiction you mentioned potatoes because that’s
certainly for kids even adults I mean it’s like
digging for buried treasure so it’s this really
fun experiment and then you get food and the math
is good because you plant one potato and you
get 10 it’s awesome um so for those who aren’t
familiar what what are these layers you speak of
right so in the book we’ve broken it down into
eight layers and traditionally in Food Forest
you know it could be anywhere between like five
usually seven layers but um I’ve decided to pick
eight uh just because some plants fit into some
categories better than others so um we start with
the canopy trees and when designing the garden
I always like to talk about the big pieces first
because they kind of dictate the sun and the shade
and the overall feel of the space so there’s the
canopy tree so these are like the really really
tall trees for me it’s the tall Douglas Furs
or the maples um and then underneath there’s
the subcanopy trees and this is where you see a
lot more of the fruit tree that you can get at
the nursery so you can include the the pears the
apples a lot of the common plants uh trees that
we grow shrubs is the next layer down and this
is where you can have a lot of fun a lot of neat
things are found in the nurseries now some of my
favorites um are kind of exotic but they do well
where I live some need a bit more protection
but it’s worth the extra effort so shrubs is a
really great layer and then the next layer down
is herbaceous perennials which I think you can
probably find the greatest variety when it comes
to edible things um it could be more grassier
things to fill out spots and also flowers so when
growing a garden for food we like to think about
the flowers as well so this is where a lot of the
flowers that come back year after year live um
another layer is climbers and this is really just
trying to maximize that vertical space whether you
have an arbor a simple trellis or an existing tree
that doesn’t mind something growing up the side of
it it’s a really neat layer to explore uh annuals
although it’s not really a layer it’s more of like
a category I like to throw that in there so this
could be the squashes the nestum the things that
can climb or you can let them Trail and it kind
of bleeds into the other layer which is ground
covers right exactly yeah yeah so it’s so a lot
of these annuals you know they grow during this
one main season for most areas um especially if
you get colder temperatures but yeah they do like
multi-duty which is great um so with the ground
covers I like focusing on the perennials that just
come back year after year with no real issues as
long as they’re given the right soil conditions so
I’m thinking like the times the self heal um a lot
of the oh strawberries they’re just so beautiful
um so Ground Covers is one of the layers that
I really like to focus on uh underutilized but
can add so much beauty and a great impact to the
space and the last layer is the lowest down which
is the rizosphere or the root crops a lot of meat
ones there especially if you live in a place that
doesn’t get freezing temperatures that would kill
off the root crops yeah and and you combine all of
those things so given that you’re in Canada and
it’s April what are you growing up there tell us
a little bit about your growing space and how
you use these layers so what I’ve learned over
the years is that some plants are more are more
sensitive to the frost so right now as this the
ground is slowly warming up we’re trying to get
the tomatoes ready to go into the ground by June
um you know I’m looking at the space and going
okay what can I shift around or what stays here
and the annual plants are the on that get shifted
around so they stay in the more raised bed style
so right now I’m just making sure that that space
is prepped um whereas the perennial garden areas
they kind of just do their own thing so any fruit
trees that I have in the ground the ground covers
are perking back up with the warmer temperatures
and also herbaceous penals um I love anise hisop
and any of the mints those are waking up so it’s
adding some more green to the space so I’m feeling
the energy again and and the I can feel like the
garden is waking up and I do have some perennials
that are still in containers so I’m just trying
to plan out new garden bed areas so that they can
find their forever home yeah and do you move
your containers into the garage over winter
is that how you deal with it yeah so during the
cold snaps of the winter which did happen um in
the greenhouse is where many of the overwintering
perennial which are a bit more uh sensitive to the
frost and the cold uh that’s where they hang out
so in containers usually they’re the one gallons
not so much the big ones because they do take
up a bit of space so I do have a carport area
which I like to keep available for stashing plants
that need the extra protection but they don’t need
the warmer temperature so I just put some burlap
around them and they are just good waiting there
nice and I want to make a point of saying you
have a greenhouse there’s so many people here in
Southern California who want a greenhouse I’m like
you don’t need one uh it’s just so they’re usually
really nice to have and kind of a nerdy fun way to
engage in gardening um so are you growing anything
year round while you’re in there the first year
I had my Greenhouse I got really excited and
wanted to grow all the things and it became a bit
overwhelmed in because I quickly realized with the
size of the greenhouse that I had it’s an 8 by 12
so it’s a lot of room but at the same time once
you start packing it it gets quite cozy I found
that once the temperatures started warming up so
right around now April and into may it gets warm
once the sun’s out and things start to cook so the
maintenance of growing things year around for me
isn’t isn’t my thing so it’s mostly a workspace
where I start see and um like March April May is
when it’s packed so we’re going to be seeing lots
of uh green stuff in the greenhouse as we progress
through spring nice and um are you just one more
question about where where you’re live and what
you have to work with is it a regular Urban lot
or do you have land what is what are what are
you working with there so I live on a Suburban
lot I’ve got neighbors right like over the fence
um usually when I film content you can’t really
tell it’s all the camera angles you don’t know
that there’s really a street on the other side
of the Hedge there’s a school up the street so
um yeah it’s a Suburban neighborhood and there
is enough land for a whole bunch of beds and
enough trees for me to manage so right now I’ve
got um I’d say less than a dozen dwarf trees but
they’re still young so I’m just trying to figure
out what I’m going to do do once they really
grow larger but it’s a good amount of space
to work with and that’s where raised beds really
help because I can just kind of move them around
they’re kind of modular and I’m not really stuck
with a permanent spot yeah I think a lot of people
think that permaculture the you know the concept
of layered gardening uh is only for folks who
have a lot of land or wide open spaces so since
you are in a suburban and urban kind of location
how would someone apply these Concepts that you
talk about in your book to a smaller space yeah
and that’s a great question and uh we do have a
section like a small section on how to apply this
to containers and patios because uh where I live
in Vancouver it’s really high density most of the
people who live here have small patios if they’re
lucky a lot of people have balconies so you can
apply these Concepts to Growing vertically in a
container so the larger the container the better
you have to make sure you check with your strata
to you know check with the weight limits make sure
you don’t you know collapse your balcony because
that could be really really scary um especially
once you start growing Lots you know that soil
can get quite heavy but um what’s really neat
with containers is that you’re really forced to
be creative and you pick the things that you know
you really want to grow or you know you really
want to experiment with and having that really
concentrated layered effect is really beautiful um
I’ve had clients try this out and just see layers
of colors so Scarlet runner beans is always like
a really favorite climber it’s fast growing it
grows beautifully it’s quite vigorous and we love
hummingbirds hummingbirds love the Scarlet runner
beans you can have trailing theams just spill
out of a container and then to Anchor the whole
container you can have blueberries or you can have
your favorite small fruiting shrub and then maybe
some Lage or some perennial herb that grows and
fills it out so I think it could be a really fun
space as long as you make sure that the soil
conditions and the light conditions um Are all
uh a good fit for the plants and when we CU you
said uh the larger the pot the better what are we
talking about out what size so I would say for a
balcony if you can afford the space something the
size of like a half whiskey barrel that would be
a good size if you can visualize that um I have a
couple in my front garden that I’ve experimented
with and I’ve had one big shrub in the middle you
can have like one or two ground covers that kind
of spill over the edge you can put a very small
even like a bamboo trellis up the back side of
it and it works and it’s really pretty it adds
like a really great focal point to the Garden
doesn’t matter what scale you have great now I
I noticed in the book that you grow some really
interesting crops or I should say edible things
that most people wouldn’t think of as edible like
hastas and day lies for example so what are some
of your unusual favorites that you like to grow
one of my unusual favorites that I’ve had in the
garden for I I’d say 3 to four years years and
it comes surprisingly comes back year after year
is Oka it’s this pinkish or actually comes in
different colors it’s this tuber crop and you
can use it as a underground crop and it’s also
a really nice uh ground cover so it grows yeah
it’s very beautiful it looks like um uh what is
it ground different types of soral it’s very tiny
um it looks like the weedy sorl but it’s not
quite weedy especially if you live in a colder
climate like mine I actually have to protect mine
U once the temperatures drop but during the fall
it looks really beautiful it looks like a thick
Lush blanket of almost Clover and also depending
on the color of the tuber it kind of gives you
a hint as to what the stem color is like so mine
are this Ruby pink color so the stems are kind of
Ruby pink and then like beautiful little dainty
leaves on top and then come winter that’s when you
dig them up so um last winter I dug mine up I put
them into the greenhouse just so they have like
a non like frozen place to hang out and then they
Leaf out and year after year I propagate them
sometimes I get a surprise tuber that pushes
new leaves even without protection so who knows
who knows that’s very cool I’ve never grown Oka
before but I I know it’s a South American uh you
know kind of standard and certainly in the parts
of Southern Southern United States people have
grown them I for some reason thought that it was
sort of going to look like how sweet potatoes
look when they fill out the canopy or that they
were like Jerusalem artichokes and put up some
kind of a tall flower but I love the idea that
it’s something like soral and interesting very
cool all right so one of the sections of the
book that I like uh where you suggest plants for
each layer of the spectrum trees shrubs and Vines
and they all have some edible component to them
I’ll say for our Southern listeners while many
of these plants are better suited to Northern or
colder climates there are some great suggestions
for warmer locations as well so how should people
go about selecting plants for the layered Garden
because I know they have to they have to know a
few things what do you suggest right so where I
live and in colder climates the number one thing
so I’m just going to mention this first is knowing
the coldest temperature that your plant can
tolerate so this past winter it was very cold
and I regretted growing some of the plants that
I had because it’s a lot of work to protect them
so I’d say if you live in a colder climate think
about that can you protect your plants especially
if they’re in ground um and sort of related you
need to know your soil condition so this is for
anyone not just people in colder climates you
know what’s the soil like do you have to keep
watering it is it a good match for your plant um
sometimes when we force plants into conditions
that they are just not naturally meant to grow in
it’s a lot of work for the gardener and it means a
lot more inputs whether it’s amending the soil or
just watering and care so I’d say that’s like the
number one thing is just understanding your soil
um the other piece which I kind of touched on is
management of the plants like let’s be realistic
not everyone has the time or the patience or maybe
the skill set quite yet to properly maintain the
health of a plant um so there’s I mean it’s great
because you know if you grow a plant that requires
you to learn something then you learn something
eventually but if you are short on time and you
can’t realistically tend to a plant that needs
regular pruning or Pest Management take that into
consideration otherwise you may end up resenting
the plant and that’s not good it should be a place
um that you like your garden so you choose um what
works for you and also edible Gardens will you eat
the plant so I went down that route of U growing
all sorts of things um because they really cool
and I like experimenting but then I realize that
I don’t end up eating the crops or I just end
up giving them away so I have to think oh okay
is this worth the space since I don’t I mean I
have space but I don’t have a ton of space maybe
there’s a better alternative so will you eat it
um so I’d say those are some big things that are
sometimes the tips that are not shared widely yeah
okay well it is tip time speaking of tips Do you
have a favorite tip you’d like to share with
the gardenerd audience I do I do and this one
isn’t specific to like this type of gardening but
a very good General one that I always share is if
you want to reduce time in the garden especially
around weeding know the life cycle of your weeds
depending on annual weeds or perennial weeds
that changes your priorities so annual weeds
they have a quick life cycle they will flower and
set thousands of seeds in a short amount of time
you want to tackle those first otherwise you’re
just starting a cycle of needing to weed the same
annual quick groam seeds the dandelions the dock
the things that are perennial lower priority as
long as they’re not flowering so save those for a
day where you just want to tackle something slowly
I love it I know that when I see stuff going to
seed out there I start panicking have to get out
there quick at least pull the seed heads off if
that’s all you can get to is just pull the seed
heads off at least all right? Well thank you so
much Chris for sharing that and all of your tips
here on the Gardenerd Tip of the Week Podcast. Where
can people find you online? Well I’m most active on
Instagram you can find me @fluent.Garden. And
do you have a website or anything else people
should look for? Uh YouTube is in the works. Okay.
I do have a website it’s Fluent.garden. There’s no
www there’s no nothing else it’s just fluent dot
Garden it’s uh we’re revamping it right now so uh
stay tuned but if anyone would like to reach me
um Instagram is probably your best bet. Okay thank
you so much. All right Gardenerds, you’ll find a
link to Chris’s book this week on gardenerd.com
we’ll also share her social media feeds and where
you can get her guide on where to buy seeds. That’s
it for this week subscribe to this podcast on
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our Gardenerd YouTube channel. Happy gardening.
1 Comment
Thanks! Good info no matter what size garden you have.