In Episode 236, I’m joined by Dr Donald Layman to hone in on protein amount, quality, and timing.
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Fasting, metabolic health, shift-work and cancer | Dr Courtney Peterson
There is endless online dialogue on protein. We continue to see bold claims from every direction; some influential figures spout that protein is damaging to long-term health, while others push supplements and extreme diets in favour of increasing protein intake.
We’ve examined protein on The Proof before, but today I am joined by Don Layman, PhD to offer clarity and open on a new perspective: how does protein interact with skeletal and metabolic health?
Dr Donald Layman is a leading researcher on protein, nutrition for athletic performance, obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular health. With a highly respected career spanning over 40 years, Dr Layman has received numerous awards for his research and nutrition teaching. He is Professor Emeritus in the Department of Food Science & Human Nutrition at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and brings a lifetime of research and education to today’s conversation.
In this episode, we delve into the interaction between protein consumption, skeletal muscle, and metabolic health. We examine age related changes to muscle, muscle protein synthesis, and longevity. Dr Layman also provides guidance on how much protein to consume and at what time.
Specifically, we cover:
0:00 Intro
5:00 Muscle & Metabolic Health
14:00 Moderate vs HIIT Training
16:29 Are Aging Outcomes Genetic?
19:15 Longevity vs Vitality
24:40 Muscle Protein Synthesis
43:03 Is the Protein RDA Sufficient?
56:05 Protein Intake for Aging
59:48 Why Leucine
1:03:33 Longevity Misinformation
1:16:08 Cardiovascular Disease
1:25:30 Protein Distribution
1:29:17 Questionable Industry Funding
1:34:09 Meal Timing
1:39:33 Protein Threshold
1:43:26 Danger of Cold Therapy
1:46:20 Important Supplements
1:49:20 Chronic Kidney Disease
1:52:41 Outro
Having followed Dr Layman’s work for a long time, it was great to have him on the show today. As an open and informed discussion – including some points where our views didn’t identically align – there is certainly room for many more conversations. I look forward to having Dr Layman back on the show in future.
Connect with Donald Layman, PhD:
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/donlayman
• Website: https://metabolictransformation.com/
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Enjoy, friends.
Simon
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24 Comments
wooooooo pleaseeee bring on the next 2 episodes, I can't wait for Dr Valter Longo he is the best!
why do all your bananas have red hats?
54.9aged, eat Mediterranean style inc 3-4 serves hi protein plain yoghurt daily. (Calcium & protein). Dont want to over do calories thus not meat eggs cheese. Lose strength, stamina due to lapse of RT over covid & life disruptions. Now RT daily but definitely harder. Chronic lymphoma since 2019, poor diet of hi protein powder, little range of plants no fruit. No UPF, 100+ no thk. Not to be fragile, enjoy food.
What is your opinion on studies that show vegan children grow more slowly than omnivore children, but seem to catch up later?
Do you conclude the same from the literature? And if so, is this bad?
I could argue it might be a good thing, because when we look at livestock and pets that grow very fast in childhood they tend to grow into severe health problems.
Then again, I could also say it's bad because it seems a vegan diet is somehow insufficient in calories/nutrients (protein specifically) to maximise children's growth.
I was surprised to hear him say that the average protein intake in the US is about 0,9-1,0 g/kg. If I remember correctly Dr Christopher Gardner said, in your episode with him and Dr Stuart Philips, that it was about 1,3-1,4 g/kg, or somewhere in that ballpark
Thank you for the great podcast as usual!
At 50:40 Dr. Layman says that we cannot measure the difference between 1.2 and 1.6g of protein/kg of body weight. Does this mean there is no benefit of a protein intake greater than 1.2g/kg?
Also, is there a difference in optimal protein intake between men and women that resistance train? I remember once reading a paper that showed the plateau for bodybuilding was 1.6g/kg, but bodybuilders on steroids often claim higher is better, so does higher testosterone change the recommendation?
Dr Laymans recommendations don't seem to pass Dr Longo's 5 pillar common sense approach overall that I ascribe to, but in context actually do somewhat fit the healthy pescatarian diet Dr Longo recommends until older age. Looking forward to your discussion with Dr Longo, thanks Simon!
where are the references
so yes, i am very confused right now. i honestly believe dr. longo. he may be bised, but let's not forget that luigi fontana came to the same conclusions regarding protein bcaas, etc and longevity. he works in sidney, and he's a top longevity researcher. it's hard to dispute his claims. i wrote some comments on this topic on norton's channel, but somehow they were deleted. i wonder if you can bring luigi on your podcast one day.
I'm mostly looking forward to your own conclusions, Simon, at the end of all these episodes. So much info to try to sort out, it's a bit contradictory and confusing to me.
longevity runs in my family. but they all thrived on veggies and potatoes, yogurt, some eggs and small amounts of cheese. meat fish and poultry were rare. if i tell my grandmother which is 85 now to chug some protein powder every day, she would beat the hell out of me. by the way, she lives alone in very good health for a 85 old woman.
another thing to mention is she goes to restaurant maybe 3 times a year. 99% of what she eats is made by her, including baked goods and sweets.
I'm gonna be skipping this episode due to the podcast covering the topic of protein in numerous episodes. It's been talked about quite a lot here. I'd like to see a three part series on the ethics of Cacao production.
I am 66, so I do try for a little more protein. I find the higher end of the recommendations a bit hard to reach without a supplement. I am aiming for 1.2, probably hit 1.0 or so. If I use fat free mass, those numbers become 1.4 and 1.2. I am not big, those numbers work out to about 70 to 85 grams. And I resistance train regularly.
I thought that leucine was no longer considered a major factor. Or is that in body builders who take in a large amount of total protein? It makes me think of BCAA supplements which don't seem to recommended that much anymore.
Hi Simon, fascinating comments:
1. Only 25% of protein used by muscles.
2. Muscle preservation is 80% resistant and only 20% protein intake.
3. 6 out of 7 amino acids get reincorporated.
The cumulative effect of the above is significant.
It would be appreciated if you and/or your guests could cover off in greater detail the fact that the body produces the majority of the protein required all by its self. I wonder if the amino acids that we self produce are the most critical, hence evolution has led to them to being the only ones we self produce.
From an observational point of view the following seem apparent:
The following cohorts don't normally achieve longevity or vitality
1. Body builders that pump a lot of iron (the ones that don't do steroids)
2. High end edurance athletes and they also wear out their bodies and hearts
3. Sedentary and/or overweight people
4. Taller humans have a shorter life span, which probably helps partially explain why females live longer even when accounting for lifestyle choices.
The people that live beyond 85 and still live in their own home and remain active, healthy and independent are generally lean. Personally I believe that the current protein obsession is partly food company marketing and partly individuals seeking an easy option I.e. glug down protein rather than make lifestyle changes.
49:47 "Most people in the United States aren't after minimal health, they're after optimal health." The data suggest otherwise. Over two thirds of population is overweight or obese, massive rates of T2D and heart disease. The majority of the American population over 50 are on meds to mitigate poor lifestyle choices.
How much or how many grams of leucine should someone over 60 be consuming daily if they are active and looking to maintain or increase muscle? I’m mostly plant based, no meat but some yogurt or buttermilk. How can I get enough leucine? Should I supplement? How many grams per day? PS, I read Longo’s book and I tend to agree with Dr Layman that Dr Longo has a bias probably linked to his supplement business.
No mention of protein recycling
Dr greger 0,8 G protein is enough
You should look at Dave Feldman's research on hyperresponders. They are currently being conducted at I believe Haward (Don't quote on the college). They have some preliminary data out that's interesting.
argh…I do find this all frustrating….I very much want to be 100%plant based, I eat a super healthy diet of whole foods, mostly plants. I eat some yogurt and occasional fish but feel not so good ethically about even that small amount. But I am 61 and he is correct that its hard to get the amount of protein I am aiming for (about 1.5 to 1.8 per kg) without a lot of calories when Im eating totally plant based. I do lift weights, 4x per week, and I walk and hike and do some rowing. But as a 61 year old woman it just gets harder to keep myself at the healthy weight I want to maintain…the frustrating part is ALL the different opinions/views….I listen to one person and Im convinced Im fine to eat a bit lower protein, then I listen to someone else and it all shifts. BUT, thank you anyway…I love your podcasts, listen to all of them. Your work and ethics are top notch.
Please do future episodes on men's mental health. That's severely under discussed right now.
Simon, take a look at a man who was ahead of his time – Dr. Ernst Van Aaken – especially his book The Van Aaken Method. He intuited many of the current trends in metabolic health and longevity back in the late 1940's!
Some interesting points, but overall this dude gives me dishonest vibes. I know he's made the rounds in the low carb circles and that's where his bias seems to be, so fair enough; but lobbing a few baseless accusations of alleged data manipulation doesn't convince me that Longo and all who agree with him are mistaken. I'm mostly plant-based (small amounts of fish and dairy on occasion), I lift, I have a small protein shake after workouts, and I make sure to eat plenty of beans and tofu, some enriched pastas as well. I've never felt dissatisfied with my rate of progress in the gym. The protein conversation is interesting, especially as someone who used to follow the RDA religiously, but I feel at some point we're starting to lose sight of the forest through the trees a little bit. Love the show, just my two cents on this particular topic. Looking forward to what's coming down the pipe!