Thomas Mahler, creator of No Rest for the Wicked, chats with me about Action RPG development.
Check out No Rest for the Wicked on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1371980/No_Rest_for_the_Wicked/
Follow Thomas on X: https://x.com/thomasmahler/
0:00 Introduction
0:27 GDC ARPG Roundtable
1:36 Origins of NRFTW
8:30 ARPG Combat
24:36 Power Creep
26:33 Nerfs in ARPGs
29:15 Seasons/Live Service
35:43 League Mechanics
43:00 Versatility of ARPGs
56:53 Diegesis
1:02:50 Vision
1:06:06 Procedural Level Generation
1:17:21 Darkhaven
1:19:00 Iteration Speed
1:26:12 Graphical Fidelity
1:30:49 Outro
40 Comments
Thanks for having me, Chris! I deeply, deeply enjoyed having this chat with you and I'm sure we could've talked about a whole bunch of design stuff for many more hours, but let's see how this one does! 🤣😂
I'm so so sad that at 25:00 Thomas just talked about nerfs while Chris was probably hinting at a general contradiction in design philosophy about ARPGs that at some point and time are designed to trivialize combat. Such a good opportunity to address a clash of ideas that PoE2 is also facing with putting a lot of effort into good combat early on in the campaign for it to devolve to screen-clearing one button builds in the end game.
The dexterity vs intelligence player comparison is amazing. I feel like i am 60-70% dexterity cause i got bored easily when i use the same skill over and over again and never go far into poe2 endgame.
What can I say, I really dont think Dark Souls combat is fun and I'm sad that everyone in the action/adventure/rpg sphere is trying to emulate it. Innovation, what the hell is that, just chase trends. Good thing is, its all a cycle and we'll get variety back in the menu.
Awesome chat love hearing this game development
Amazing video. It was so refreshing to see two brilliant designers talk about their philosophy and how they approach their games. Thomas is truly an inspiring game designer who follows the mindset of the developers of the 90's and early 2000's, who just want to deliver a fully fledged gaming experience, and who is not afraid of taking risks to shape his vision instead of relying on the established formula. I'm very excited for the future of No Rest for the Wicked.
Mahler is a toxic right wing nut.
Loved the discussion. Would love to hear more. Both of these guys have a wealth of passion and experience having stewed on these ideas for so long. Felt a little like Thomas had a lot he wanted to discuss and not enough time to get it all out there.
I find the "other verbs than fighting" thing really interesting. Long-time poe players will know that there are other important, ancillary verbs bolstering the experience. E.g., players spend a lot of time on character and gear planning (pob), trading, farming strategy, meta progression, community building, hideout design, etc. And for poe I don't mind the brain-turn-off flow state where you are just playing the map, because after dozens of hours it is kind of nice to sail on the other verbs and listen to music or a podcast or chat with friends. Fwiw, it definitely keeps me in a league longer than I would be otherwise. Whether that is a good or bad thing is pretty subjective and contextual. There's a lot more going on than an inevitable boiling-down to just playing the map.
In discussion, though, those other verbs get sidelined a little, at least with respect to the amount of player focus they occupy. Many people want the combat verbs to be more interesting (a la soulslike), thinking it will only add to the experience. Many people want orthogonal verbs like farming or city building, breaking up the monotony and filling out the world. Those things do have an effect on the existing ancillary verbs, however. All of these things make a game take shape and have identity. It makes poe and nrftw both great and distinct. Just saying it is easy to overlook how small changes can impact the existing shape (rather than just refining or improving it). I think Chris and Thomas started to touch this with the term "parasitic verbs" but didn't have time to get into it further.
Also just have to note that Thomas's comment about Undead Burg in Dark Souls overlooks that the level and enemy design are tightly intertwined. They are not mutually exclusive. If you randomly replace the enemies there, it falls apart. It is made to be experienced and overcome at a particular point with particular challenges. I think Thomas knows this and omits it here in a goes-without-saying way. I think he is interested in seeing what happens when you decouple and design around those things. Just pointing out there is a pitfall in that deconstructive thinking if you follow it unaware of what is already working.
This was so good, thank you!
No rest for the wicked is amazing game 😊
Talking about combining soulslike with arpg elements while acting like Nioh didn't do that 9 years ago.
Remnant 2 is a good example of what you want in randomization I think
Tomas Mahler is so hard on this side of "This combat is Better or that playstyle is Worse "
I dont like that he uses those words because it seems like hes putting other things down and calling his better or worse in certain properties, but really its just based off what people like. I wish he would rather talk about what playstyles synchronize with others rather than such a linear comparison.
"no idea what we're gonna talk about, there is no agenda"
Based.
Two legends!
top tier devs
top tier conversation
<3
Can we expect Miyazaki san on someday as guest in this channel?😀
Chris Wilson has never played a Zelda game? That's a problem……….
Great video! No Rest for the Wicked really nailed the regular mob combat. I loved the level design, but I think the game misses the mark when it comes to bosses. The mechanics don't feel very innovative. If I’m being honest, the implementation feels a bit behind titles like D4 and dramatically behind PoE 2.(PoE2 has like 25 bosses for every 1 in NRFTW)
While the game is still extremely good, I found the boss fights to be lacking. They were far too easy. At most, a boss took me two attempts. They also felt derivative of things I’ve seen before, which makes the lack of quality and quantity harder to overlook. Which is a real shame since fighting regular enemies is somehow more engaging and more challenging. Honestly, the boss design currently just feels ripped from D4, while not being an improvement and lacking the scope. I 'd love to see NRFTW go it's own direction on this front because you guys have really nailed a lot.
Man its crazy how much I agree with the direction thomas is going with his game, to the point I am thinking of trying it even though I hate western ARPGs precisely because what the people expect from it is the same brain mush approach that I personally think its a waste. I do wonder if he will continue to be able to develop the game with that vision because I always thought ARPGs were done in that vein because its easier to live service it that way, being able to handcraft everything intentionally in a live service gotta be pretty hard to maintain
creating a new sub genre LOL all they did was mash together souls and survival crap with an isometric perspective. It's a horrible game and this dude is arrogant beyond belief.
Ah so now we finally confirmed that the turd of a game PoE2BAD is the Johnatans vision
I LOVE these. Thanks for sharing Chris
One guy that wants to climb ladders and castles and another dude that just wants to look at the minimap and kill.
I could watch these talks for hours. Great content as always,
As for the killing monsters question, I really enjoy the gear meta progression in PoE. I felt the recent iterations of Diablo depend too much on the ground loot and not enough on player skill which created that linear time = progress feel. It's why I have over 10k hours in PoE but much less in any recent Diablo game.
Haven't played No Rest for the WIcked since early beta. I really need to get back into it. Very cool game.
Oh this is wonderful.
I just hope Thomas understands that arena pvp is not the way forward. Pvp should be dynamic, and it should leverage the hand crafted world that has been made. It is why dark souls invasion pvp is so popular. The worst thing he can do listen to the current minuscule "community" that festers in games in development.
Path of exile endgame combat is why I don't play path of exile.
❤
Very interesting chat, right?
Been absolutely loving these.
God damn banger video
Awesome show.. 👍
24:37 The biggest challenge No Rest endgame will face. I don’t think Thomas gave a good answer or even get the question. Combat doesn’t matter anymore once you get a powerful build, so endgame No Rest will just be like endgame PoE.
Right.
someone not playing zelda just blows my mind… i mourn for your loss Chris
When is this game coming to PlayStation 5? I have it wishlisted on there for ages and ages but no sign of a release dare. What's up with that..?
intelligence players versus dexterity players is such a cool way of looking at it. my buddy will copy a guide almost exactly and play it and have fun. ill spend 2-3 days working on a POB minmaxing my own build that i usually only play till 95 or so. lol. i spend more time in POB than i do playing POE. it's so amazing when my build comes together though. ive made numerous builds that top poeninja charts for ehp or dps building a skill or using a certain item combination that others haven't found yet or have overlooked. thats why i love poe so much, there's so many ways to solve things in the game. my buddy doesn't quite get why im afk in my hideout on POB for hours having fun instead of farming maps and beating bosses, and im wondering how hes having fun copying a build to the letter lol
Hearing you guys talk about quest markers leading to players just mindlessly run through the content in D4, and Thomas actively Designing No Rest for the Wicked to combat that kind of design approach gives me hope. Looking forward to checking the game out when it's out of EA.
Chris is just a cutie patootie and noone can tell me otherwise