Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! How about the 270 Winchester in Africa? And what’s the difference between ES, SD, and BC? What are all these silly little symbols and numbers? And what are the best bullets to choose when handloading the 7mm-08 Remington for deer hunting? Let’s see if we can’t figure it out on this episode of Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion – the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me – from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I’ve seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
49 Comments
Same here. Love it! I shoot 120 ttsx's for most things and always have a few 160 bonded bear claws with me, just in case I need more punch.
I love 7mm I have 7mmx30 waters, 7mm08 and 7mag
2606 is cool but really needs a faster twist rate with heavier high bc bullets
The sectional density is the relationship of bullet mass to its cross section. A heavy for caliber bullet has a higher density than a light-for-caliber. As Ron stated, back when all bullets were pretty much the same, a higher SD bullet tended to penetrate farther.
These days, SD is not nearly as useful since bullet construction varies so much. Most monolithic copper or copper alloy bullets penetrate much deeper than their SD would suggest. A bonded or controlled-expansion lead-cored bullet will penetrate farther than a higher SD traditional cup and core bullet as well.
Thanks for another informative video.
120 nosler BT are great and good friend swears by 140 partitions
SD is the standard deviation, which is the plus or minus amount from the average, most times it winds up being half of the ES, the extreme spread
Since he asked about the extreme spread and the SD together, I would presume both were pertaining to chronograph data. Therefore, he needs to know that SD in that case refers to Standard Deviation of the data.
I figure he was ask about the Standard Deviation but I may be wrong.
I think he may have been referring to SD for standard deviation? I assume since he asked about ES in the same question.
Is there a reason why no lions in Texas ? There should be lions in Texas . Ron you should push this Idea. Thanks
That terminal assent is great.
6.5 Grendel beats the 3030 I believe.
Ron doesn’t like the 7.62×39 because it was used against American troops, so he ordered a 7×57 Mauser.
Timestamps please! You used to have them.
I’ve been on the fence of favorite cartridges between the 7-08 and 280 AI for years. Every year older I get, I find myself reaching for one of the 3 lower recoiling 7-08s I have. As someone who started shooting a 30-06 as a teenager, and filled a tractor trailer full of game with that old REM 700, it has retired to the safe for many years. Along with a host of other good company ranging from .223 to .454 that only see use on sentiment alone.
Regarding the question asked by one of your viewers on BC, SD, and ES and what they mean, I wanted to add two cents. His question is confusing, because in context, he asked both about extreme spread – which is a statistic – and ballistic coefficient – which is an attribute of the bullet related to its physics. Thus, in context, when he asks about SD, you can't tell if he's referring to SD meaning standard deviation, a statistic, or SD meaning sectional density, which is an attribute of the bullet related to its physics (mass and diameter).
You answered the latter, which is calculated by taking the bullet weight in grains/7000 – i.e. the bullet's weight in pounds – divided by the diameter of the bullet (along its axis of travel) measured in inches, squared. That gives you the initial sectional density, which is a predictor of the potential penetration capability of the bullet compared to other bullets of the same shape. There is also the terminal sectional density, which is more complex, because it takes into account the weight and cross-sectional area of the bullet after it has come to a stop in the animal. Both the weight and the cross-sectional area may be different from the initial SD, if the bullet has shed weight after expanding and losing lead (mass), and increased its frontal area by virtue of that expansion. Obviously, an exposed lead hollow point is much more likely to have a lower terminal sectional density than, for example, a fully-jacketed military round. So the terminal sectional density, which would be measured after recovery from an animal, is a bullet characteristic that is important to know when hunting animals, for example, that require deep penetration to reach the vitals.
As for the former – Standard Deviation – it is a statistic widely used in science, etc. for its robustness, and may be greatly affected by extreme spread. It is a statistic calculated based on the dispersion of many bullets shot at a target from an arbitrary point on that target, chosen, typically, at or near the center of the group. Its value is that SD is a commonly used statistic when assessing the consistency of a population based on a sample – i.e. how accurate a rifle shooting that particular load is likely to be, based on the behavior of a sample of, say 5 or 10 rounds of that ammunition fired at a target and measured.
For example: let's assume that you fire 5 shots at the x ring and then measure the distance from the center of the x to the center of each bullet hole. You would add up the distances and divide by 5; that gives you the Mean distance. You would then take each distance and subtract the mean from it, to get 5 numbers that represent the difference from the mean – positive or negative. Now comes the math: square each of those numbers. Then add the squares together. Divide the result by 5 – that gives you the average (squared) deviation from the mean. Finally, take the square root of that number. That's the Standard Deviation. Aren't you glad you asked? Oh – that's right; you didn't ask.
Or – just plug the numbers into a standard deviation calculator on the Internet. Yeah, that's it – I like that idea better. What it tells you, however, is useful; if the standard deviation is large, since you can actually estimate, for a large number of shots, how many are likely to fall within that deviation from the mean – i.e. the accuracy of the round – you can compare it with another round with a smaller standard deviation and how many shots are likely to fall within its deviation from the mean – assuming a normal distribution of shots. The result will have a pretty robust and standardized, reliable meaning. Yes, it's a very picky and scientific measure, but it is also very systematic – which is why it is used in scientific research as a measure of the quality of observations, or the consistency of some factor being observed in nature.
Anyway, SD can have two meanings, so I just thought I'd chime in to make sure both are covered. I figure if I had to suffer through this stuff in statistics class, I'd share the pain with your audience. I hope this contributes to your video, and doesn't scare viewers away. As always, thanks for the video – very informative.
I had a sweet little Model 7 in 7mm-08 in the nineties. I went to college and sold it because I was broke after about 25-30 deer. What a slayer. I had some good times with that light little rifle.👍
Ron, I think in this scenario the SD they're looking for is Standard Deviation. Thanks, love you shows
I remember as kid seeing advertisements for Lazzeroni rifles. The names of the calibers are what always caught my attention. Names like Firebird and Warbird. Seems their advertisements just disappeared. Don't see anything of them on YouTube either. I know they still make them. I just looked at their website. Anyone else remember these ads in hunting and shooting magazines?
Mr spomer What's your thoughts on a 303 brittish for hunting moose, i inherited a lee enfield no 4 mk 2, what grain bullet should I choose if it's even viable as a good hunting gun
I remember wanting a 7mm 08 after studying ballistic charts. Since I hunt in East Texas I’ve always liked the 308. No need for long action rifles around here. Anyway I found a M700 LVSF. Oh immediately I noticed how flexible the forearm of the stock was. The action was as smooth as glass. I slowly broke in the barrel. My biggest problem was that I could only find 2 factory loads for the gun. It didn’t matter if I was at a gunshow or a Gunshop. One cheap Remington load and one from Nosler. The groups just printed around 2.5” at 100 yards. I’m an accuracy nut. I simply couldn’t live with it. I wanted to try a different stock. I thought that might be the issue. I eventually came across a Tikka 308 and just gave up on the Remington. Why bother throwing money at a gun that still might not shoot well. Of course the Tikka shot great right out of the gate.
PHs RAVED abpout the 7mm Mauser for elephants…so there is that. Reloading? WIth apologies to the immortal words of Mr Checkers "Comon baby…let's talk about twist…wop wop
7mm08 ai is my favorite
The b.c for .22 lr is fairly hard to get usually.
A lot of them vary a fair bit even between standard 40 grain projectiles
Standard deviation since it was listed next to extreme spread.
Hmm, this is why most (if not all) use of abbreviation sucks monkey-balls. It WILL cause confusion down the line.
SD could mean Standard Deviation
The 7×57 also used against our troops, does that disqualify it? Or only the hater of the time like now the Chinese and Russians?
Given that the SD question followed the extreme spread statement, I’m pretty sure he was referring to the standard deviation. This is a statistical analysis of the particular spread of shots and that sort of determines a margin of error for any given shot. It’s a little more complicated than that but that’s the easiest way to explain it. What you are saying about sectional density is correct, higher number is greater penetration and better ability to retain momentum. However, standard deviation is the opposite, a lower number means more accuracy and repeatability.
Published BC’s are just a starting point for your ballistic calculations. In reality the BC will vary based on your altitude, barrel twist rate, and bullet velocity. It is quite common to adjust the BC number in one’s calculator to match the actual bullet drops observed when shooting.
SD is probably Standard Deviation in this case, like others have mentioned. It's often spat out of a chronograph along with individual bullet velocities, average or "mean" velocity, and ES (extreme spread). When would you ever use such a number? When pondering your next long range shot, perhaps. If your average velocity is 3000 FPS you would use this to calculate bullet drop at the distance you plan on shooting. Your next shot will probably not be 3000 FPS but some other velocity close to that number. An SD of 10 tells you that about 2/3 of the time your velocity will be within 10 FPS of 3000. Over 90% of the time it'll be within 2 Standard Deviations (20 FPS). So when you're planning that next shot you can consider what effect such a deviation in velocity will have. For most hunting situations it's not important. For shooting long range it becomes more significant. A 50 FPS difference in velocity can result in 8-10" of elevation error at 1000 yards. I see this concept more frequently mentioned in terms of ES but it's really the same idea: how much variation in velocity can I expect from a certain gun/ammo. Low ES will correspond to low SD. An ES of 50+ is fairly common in factory ammo. Hand loads can range from there down to 10 FPS or less. An ES of 20 or less is considered pretty good for long range shooting.
7mm-08 is awesome. Bullets I've used or heard good things about for this cartridge: 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip, 120 Barnes TTSX, 130 Speer Boat Tail, 140 Nosler Accubond, 150 Hornady ELD-X, 162 Hornady ELD-M. And I almost forgot the little 100 grain Sierra varmint bullet! Those can be incredibly accurate and very low recoil when loaded down with IMR 4895.
7mm08 , 140 gr Nosler partition !
Ron, you speak my lingo
Hornady manufactures 275 Rigby factory ammunition ( 275 Rigby 140 gr Interlock SP). So, if someone wants to have a nostalgic 275 Rigby marked rifle, but not handload for it, it's still possible. I have a Ruger African, 275 Rigby and hope to bring it to Africa someday. I hand load for it, but the factory 140 gr Hornady ammunition shoots well.
Projectiles aren't normally designed for specific cartridges, but they are designed for specific impact velocities and applications. Generally speaking, as you move up in bullet weight, you're looking for more penetration. Nosler does this by making their jackets thicker, which provides slower, more controlled expansion.
Unless, of course, you handload. Loading a 150gn bullet in a 7.62x39mm turns it into a superior cartridge. I have shot dozens of Alberta Whitetail deer with a Remington 799 chambered in 762x39mm. Of course, i would not use it on a moose, and it won't compare if you use a 170gn in the 30-30, but it is a very viable deer and hog round.
I love my 25-06 i think it would work good on elk hit it in the lungs are heart liver would work.
30-30 can toss heavier slugs, and is a good gun, but I find accuracy is better at 300 plus yards by quite a bit.
7mm-08. 139 Hornady CX. Staball 6.5.
Pertaining to the question about my beloved 7mm-08 bullet design.
The 140gr Nosler Ballistic tip is an extremely soft, thin jacketed bullet. It does tend to be quite explosive with an impact velocity over 2500 fps. It is best used out of an '08 at shot distances of 200 yards and out.
The 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip has a thicker jacket than the 140 and was optimized as a longer range bullet for the 7mm mag. When put in the modest 7mm-08, you have exceptional performance out to about 200 yards on whitetail sized game. Beyond that, the expansion and energy dump of the 150gr starts to diminish.
There is one Nosler bullet that really surprised me, the 120gr ballistic tip. The little 120gr bullet was actually optimized for silhouette shooting. Long story short, the original 120gr ballistic tip wouldn't knock down the ram at 200 yards out of the '08 handguns. To resolve this issue, Nosler gave it a much thicker jacket. I have recovered 2 jackets out of game over the years. Both jackets weighed over 60gr each, the lead cores continued on to exit the animals. This means you, essentially, have a 60+ grain monolithic bullet with the shock and energy dump of a cup and core bullet. With a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps, the bullet is extremely effective out to 400 yards. On paper, it is a flatter shooter than the venerable .243 win with a 100 gr bullet at 400 as well.
Ron the sectional density of a bullet is directly related to the bulk density of the material it's constructed of for the same diameter bullet this in turn relates to momentum (product of weight and speed) the higher the momentum given all other variable is constant means deeper penetration …. So in other words a bullet made from lets say just lead vs a bullet made from just copper … Leads bulk density (mass per volume) is significantly higher that than the bulk density of copper … therefore if the diameter of these two bullets is the same then then SD of the lead bullet will be signficantly higher than that of the all copper bullet … If the speed (ft/sec) of these two bullets are the same the bullet with the higher bulk density (and therefore SD) will have higher momentum, since momentum is the product of speed and weight … so the momentum for the all lead bullet will be higher and if it is shot at the same target the bullet (all other variables being the same eg, bullet shape etc) will penetrate deeper than the copper bullet… so in a nutshell SD is simply a 'equaliser of the playing field' by taking into account a bullets diameter when talking about momentum of that bullet… of cause in our example above we know that lead isnt as hard as all copper so they wont perform the same but if they had the same hardness and the bullets shape was the same the all lead bullet would have had a significant higher SD because fo the significant higher bulk density of lead … this explains why bullets like cup and core and bonded bullets are made because the lead cores with the higher bulk density of lead (vs copper) gives these bullets more momentum than all copper for the same diameter bullets basically summarised as a 'higher sectional density' …. the higher the momentum the deeper the pentration fo the same diameter bullet ….alllllll which works within the limitations of the rifles twist rate ….. so to be able to compare 'potential penetration capability different bullets' we refer to the SD of teh bullet ..
270 have a huge following in South Africa. Most farms don’t let you hunt with anythingsmaller than 270
7mm-08 loves 110 gr ttsx pushed super fast never had a deer take more than a step hop or jump, most simply drop and wag their tail a bit
The gap between 35 Whelen and the 358 Win seems to be a fair bit more than the difference between the 30-06 and 308.
Load data on the Hodgdon site shows the Whelen pushing 180 grain bullets in the 2,800-2,900 fps range, where the 358 is around 2,500-2,600. Moving up to 225 grain bullets, the Whelen is around 2,500-2,600 and the Winchester has dropped down to 2,300-2,400. Consistently a 200 to 300 fps gain.
Ron: another great podcast. I'm looking forward to your upcoming 7mm book. I hope you address an issue that you brought up in a recent comment you made about using monos in the .30-06. You, as well as others, have mentioned that monos perform best with velocity; however with medium velocity cartridges there might not be enough velocity left at farther ranges for the bullet to fully expand, or at least to expand adequately for maximum performance and penetration. That was a comment you made in passing recently when comparing the .30-06 with the .300WM. So what's the best solution when using cartridges like the 7×57 which generally have lower starting velocities? Simply reduce the bullet weight in order to obtain the necessary higher velocity, and compensate for lower BCs, penetration, etc.? Or move up to a higher velocity cartridge, say a .280AI, when using monos in order to maximize BC, penetration, etc.? Thanks. Mike (Florida)
Since so many others have already addressed standard deviation I won't say anymore about it. Since you were thinking about getting your Park West in 280AI, I'm curious why you choose a 7×57 over a 7×64? Both are great classic cartridges, but the 7×64 is closer to the 280AI in performance.
Well Ron as I've watched a a lot of your videos and it seems that bc plays a large roll in your opinions on ballistics even when your talking a 200 yard cartridge bc can be important though as you have said it's more critical in long range but the bc and the ability to shoot longer than 300 yards is different 7 prc 6.5 Creedmoor and even 7mm rem mag all have high bc at a 100 or even 250 yards with equivalent bullets the difference is minimal and a deer bear or elk won't k ow the difference it's not just you but many guys are hu g up on ballistics at long range when most shots are well inside the range that the bc will benefit you on an animal