Garden Design Tips You’ll Actually Use…from top garden designers James & Joe

Top garden designers James Alexander Sinclair and Joe Swift of the James & Joe Garden Show podcast (@JamesandJoeGardenShow ) share effective garden design tips you can use to transform your own garden. Find out what you need to know about the design of different-sized gardens – and what the biggest garden design mistakes are! (We’ve all made them!)

Hosted at the beautiful Horatio’s Garden South West, Horatio’s Garden is a charity that builds, cares for and staffs transformative gardens for people with spinal injuries at NHS rehabilitation centres. People with spinal injuries are in hospital for months at a time and need access to nature and open space. Both James & Joe have designed Horatio’s Gardens, and James is a trustee of the charity.

Don’t miss this brilliant chat between two of the UK’s best known garden designers – once you’ve watched this, you’ll want to follow them regularly on the James & Joe Garden Show for The Garden Collective.
00:00 Welcome
00:26 The James & Joe Garden Show https://www.scribehound.com/creators/uu4ouXbbErgc54CBD/The-James-and-Joe-Garden-Show
00:38 Horatio’s Gardens https://www.horatiosgarden.org.uk/
01:27 ‘After’ photographs of Stoke Mandeville and Horatio’s Scotland by Eva Nemeth, reproduced by permission of Horatio’s Gardens.
03:19 What you need to know about designing a small garden
06:30 Design tips for middle-sized gardens
11:50 One of the biggest garden design mistakes
12:50 Design tips for larger gardens
15:03 Joe’s Country Garden – Joe Swift’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@JoesCountryGarden
16:50 Low maintenance tips
20:17 Nobody is going to judge you on your garden
22:12 The James & Joe Garden Show on gardening and mental health – Gardening is Good for the Soul: https://youtu.be/56g01LylREY?si=1QwaMh9NcU1QmCZv

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Today we’re joined by two of the UK’s best known 
garden designers, James Alexander-Sinclair and Joe Swift. And between them, they have designed 
countless gardens in the UK and internationally. They’ve won medals at RHS Chelsea and other 
shows. And they have written books, articles, many television appearances and television 
presenting. And now they’ve got together for the James and Joe Garden Show – and welcome to 
the James and Joe Garden Show – which is a podcast which they’re doing for the garden collective. 
And today we’ve met them at the Horatio’s garden in Salisbury. And James and Joe have both designed 
Horatio’s gardens, and James is actually a trustee for Horatios, so he is going to give us a brief 
explanation of what a Horatio’s garden is. And then we’ll go over to talk about the best design 
tips and the biggest mistakes you can make in small, middle-sized, and large gardens – and also 
to find out whether there really is such a thing as a low-maintenance garden, and if so, what 
the best way to get one is. So, over to James. Thank you, Alexandra, very much indeed. It’s very 
sweet of you to ask us to be here. Quite why you asked us to come and talk to you about mistakes in 
gardens – I’ve got no idea. We are – yes – we’re at Horatios in the southwest (which is in 
Salisbury) at the moment, and Joe’s designed a garden at Stoke Mandeville for Horatios, and 
I’ve done one in Scotland. And the whole principle behind Horatios for those who have not yet heard 
of it is that basically it is a charity that was set up in memory of a rather wonderful young man 
called Horatio Chapple who was tragically killed when he was 17. His parents set up this charity 
in his memory, and the idea was to put a garden in every spinal injury unit in the country – 
of which there are 11. And this one where we’re standing now is the first one – it was designed by 
our friend Cleve West – and we’ve sort of grown, you know, from there on. So we went from here to 
Scotland, to you third – to Stoke Manderville. And we’d been to Oswestry, we got to London, we 
got to Cardiff, we got to Belfast, and Sheffield is the newest one. So, we’re keeping trucking our 
way, the whole way across the country, building what are basicly therapeutic gardens. Because one 
of the things about spinal injury is that patients are here for a long time, and quite a lot of the 
time all they had….I mean, this here where we’re sitting now, is a car park at one point. The one 
in in Stoke Manifford was just basically a piece of skanky old grass, wasn’t it? Completely unused, 
unlevel, and it was a sort of main thoroughfare as well – but now it’s a beautiful garden. Yeah. And 
Scotland the same. So, what we’re doing is we’re taking unloved bits of NHS property and turning 
them into gardens that benefit not just the patients, but also their visitors and the staff 
and everybody who has any contact at all with Horatio’s garden. And it is a huge privilege to 
be involved in it. It is wonderful, because we’re in November now, and there’s so much texture and 
form out there in this garden. It’s a pleasure to be in, even though there’s just a few dahlias and 
salvas left. I mean, flowers are over by November, but it’s been beautifully designed. So speaking of 
design, let’s start with: you’re going to design a small garden. What is the most important thing 
to think about? Oh. I’ve designed a lot of small gardens. You’ve done most small gardens. I’ve 
done balconies, roof terraces, tiny gardens, front gardens, small gardens. What? Let’s define 
a small garden. How small is small? How small is small? I mean, some people think, you know, some 
people think that an average London garden that’s maybe sort of 50ft by 20ft is tiny, but actually 
I think it’s quite big for a small garden. Yeah, I think a small garden is one into which you 
cannot fit a tennis court. I mean, I understand it. My daughter has a balcony. It is about the 
size of this table. That is her garden. So, it starts at that size and moves on from that, 
doesn’t it really? Well, my approach really is: I’ll go out into the garden, and where are you 
going to sit? Where are you going to sit? Where, you know, where are you going to sit and not feel 
exposed to the neighbors, necessarily? What are you going to see? Is there a view onto the garden 
at all from inside, from the kitchen window or the dining room window? Those are the key views. And 
where you’re going to sit will drive everything pretty much. And where if you get any sun or 
shade, you might not be a sun lover, you might like sitting in shade. And I think a very common 
mistake in small gardens is to put lots of small things. So I for one will always put some large 
items, whether they’re sort of sculptural things, large pots or features, or that will draw the 
eye. Or just big plants. Or big plants, rather than lots of little things going on which makes 
it look fussy and makes….and also, you own your garden right from the floor, right up to the moon 
or the sun. And beyond. And beyond. And I think people think, oh, everything’s got to be small and 
tiny, but actually the more you can break up the space at eye level, even in a small space, the 
more you’ve got a sort of sculptural hub going on in a way. And it becomes a three-dimensional 
space. So for me, big things in a small space, where are you going to sit, and if the view’s 
out, what are you going to see – because you’re going to look out at those views year round. 
I think that covers it very nicely, because I would much rather see a small garden with maybe 
three big plants in it rather than 100 small ones. Quite apart from the fact that it’s an awful 
lot easier to look after. So something, be bold, be sculptural, be brave. Yeah, boundaries are key 
as well. Boundaries also key. You know, fences, walls, what are you going to see? Can you green 
them up? The more you can lose the boundaries, the larger the space visually becomes. People are 
worried about putting too many plants in a garden, but actually you can create a lovely sort of green 
oasis. And in cities and towns there often is a lot of shade, so it’s crying out for sort of green 
textural planting. I saw one the other day that was in the middle of London. It had three massive 
plane trees, which basically were next door neighbour’s, that overshadowed the whole thing. 
But you went into this garden and you were….you had no idea that London was there, apart from the 
buzz of the noise, because of the green, because the walls were really really thick with climbers. 
And the idea of a lawn in a tiny garden like that is pointless – and so they’d got rid of that. 
And it was just these textures – I mean it’s like you’re saying here there’s not a lot of 
flower left. This garden never had any flower in it because it was shady and overshadowed, but 
actually worked really really well. And now when we get on to middle-size, we definitely have to 
define it. But I am thinking it’s the sort of garden that so many people have behind terraced 
houses in Britain, which is long and thin, or behind new build, which is often kind of either 
wedge-shaped or shallow and wide. So when you’ve got those, and usually there’s a fair amount 
of space, I mean we’d be talking say 60 feet 100 feet, something like that. I mean I define 
it for the Middle-Sized Garden as larger than a courtyard but smaller than an acre – but I think 
most are a bit smaller than an acre. Yeah. So, what would you say? Maybe start with James. What’s 
the most important thing with a middle-size garden when you think about redesigning it? I think 
it’s almost the same principle as Joe was talking about, about the small ones. Hang on 
– you can’t steal my ideas. I’m not going to steal your ideas. Your got to come up with your 
own design ideas. I’m going to come up with a different thing. But I’m starting….I’m giving 
you the credit for beginning the jump-off, OK, here. Because a design principle works no matter 
how big your garden is. It’s the same thing. You’re still looking at where am I going to sit? 
How am I going to use this garden? What’s it going to be? One of the things that…..I know, I’m just 
about to do a new one now. OK, there are three things. Three things that are actually really 
important when you look at a garden for the first time is first: what does the house look like? 
Because if you have a, you know, an old cottage, then it’s very difficult to put something modern 
against it. If you have a new build like you say, then don’t try the old twining roses and high 
circles and rustic arches, because it would also look stupid. So you have to consider that. Second 
thing to consider is: who is going to live in this garden? So, who’s going to use it? Are they, 
you know, a couple who like gardening? Are they a young family? Do they have two or three large 
retrievers who are going to trash everything? So, you have to bear in mind who is going to use this 
garden. The third thing to bear in mind is: what can you see from the garden? So, it was actually 
the borrowed landscape. It’s like I was talking about having trees in the next door neighbour’s 
garden last time. Are there trees in that garden? What can I see beyond it? Is the church spire 
there, or on the converse, is there a factory or a ferret works or something like that. So you 
have to consider these sort of things, and whether you want to incorporate the view, or whether you 
want to block it out. So all of these things are important. So if in your middlesize garden, you’re 
arriving, you basically it’s a sort of Victorian terrace isn’t it? I had one of these, when I 
was last in London. And you walk out the back, and there’s this sort of – you’re not quite sure 
what you’re going to meet, and what it is – but the same design principle, the same things that 
he was talking about – plus the more wiser things that I’ve just said – you put them together and 
that’s how you deal with a middle-sized garden. Does that make sense? It does. I think from 
a layout perspective, it’s good. You’ve got enough space to create rooms, as it were. Yes. But 
not necessarily traditional classical rooms with hedging between them, but just zones, you know. So 
you could….and I always work in threes really, because if you’ve got a garden with two areas, 
you’ve sort of got here and there. But if you’ve got a third, you got here, there, and somewhere 
else – here, there, and elsewhere – to go. Yeah. And often the first one will connect back 
to the house, and probably be a little bit more structured. And maybe you’re taking lines 
from the house, from the windows, the doors. Sometimes it’s just a really simple technique of 
drawing that out, and that might you know help you with some placement. And then creating some 
sort of division, and that’s where the style comes in. Where it’s a hedge, or it’s just trellis or 
it’s something formal, or it’s you know grasses and mixed shrubs and something really informal. 
But you’re still moving through from one area to the next. And then you’ve got maybe a middle 
zone, and then you got a third zone. So the first garden I had in Hackney which was a nice – it was 
90 ft by 30 ft – I created three zones like that, and it was just a simple flowing movement between 
them, and it worked really well. It really worked really well, and then you can you know if you grow 
veggies you can say OK this is the sunniest bit. This will work really nice for veggies. This is 
a really nice seating area – it’s near the house. And then you know you can create different moods 
in the different areas. The other thing about the seating area is that quite often the sitting 
area, where it’s sunny or where you need it, is not actually next door to the house. Sometimes 
it’s somewhere else, at the other end. So you come back from work and you think, “Oh, I want to go 
and have a drink in the garden. If I just walk out the kitchen door, I’m going to be in deep 
shade.” But the far end where traditionally the compost heat was, that might be the sunniest part 
of the garden. So in that case, you can reverse the whole thing, and change it round and go the 
other way. That’s exactly what I did in my first garden in Hackney, because it was north facing and 
the house shaded the garden, but the far end got the afternoon and evening sun. That was what you 
wanted. Well, yeah, I like shade. My wife likes a bit of sun. It’s nice to have choices of areas 
to go, and the larger the garden….and seating is really important, because otherwise you wander 
around and you end up going back to….so if you can dot some seating areas through it, even if you 
don’t sit on them, it just sort of mentally….it gives you a sort of destination point. I think it 
works. No, it’s also….seating is actually quite important. You should treat seating as sculpture, 
quite often, because you spend much more time looking at it than sitting on it, basically, so 
if you have a bench make it a good bench, make it a nice bench. Spend some money on it. Don’t just 
have a plank and a couple of breeze blocks. It may work as somewhere to sit, but you need to have 
something that actually is part of the….it’s like Joe was talking about the sculptural parts 
of a small garden. The seat is part of it. Really important, because actually it’s very easy for 
people to just go out and just buy any old thing at a garden center. But actually, that’s where you 
want to spend your money. Think about it. That’s where clients….sometimes they’re like, “Leave 
the furniture”. And you’ve designed and made this lovely garden. It’s all looking great. And 
then they’ll go and buy some cheap white plastic furniture or something, and which just draws 
the eye – white is a very difficult colour in a garden. And you go back and then, you know: we 
might do the photos next week or something. I’m not sure about plastic rattan. No, I’m not sure 
about plastic rattan. Because there’s an awful lot of it around the place, with these enormous 
sofas and things trying to turn….I understand the idea. For contemporary spaces. Yeah, I know, 
but not for everything. And you sometimes get them say, “I have a very nice garden that I’ve done.” 
And I arrived and they’ve got a plastic ratan three-piece bloody suite. And you think, “No.” 
Well, it was a sort of taupe mauve. Whatever it was, it was a bad idea anyway. It shouldn’t be 
allowed. I know, but it’s their garden. You see, this is the thing with clients, and you know, 
but sometimes I say, “What do you think?” “We’re thinking of getting this furniture.” And it is a 
major feature, actually. It’s a big decision. It’s a big thing. So, be careful. If we take nothing 
else from this, be careful of your furniture. Brilliant, yes, I think that’s really important. 
And now we go on to the large garden. And what is the real problem with large gardens? I think 
one once again one might have to define it a bit. You’ve got a large garden. I’ve just moved 
to….I’ve got a middle-sized garden, I think, probably, because mine’s under an acre which is 
what your definition was. Yours is just about an acre, isn’t it? No not not really. And you’ve 
divided it up beautifully actually. Thank you so much. I think well it’s sort of zoned but it’s 
very flowing your garden. It’s lovely. Yeah, my garden’s nearly two acres. Yeah. And it does 
have a sort of section of old woodland, which is great. And then there’s a sort of orchard bit. 
And I’ve totally ripped it up and changed things, but there’s a lovely sense of maturity with the 
trees there. But I’ve got views that the previous owner sort of blocked off a little bit, and so 
I’ve opened up views. So yes, talking about the borrowed landscape, if you’ve got views, I’m 
working with that. And I’m actually taking the lines of the hills and trying to bring them into 
the garden in some clip forms and just the shape of the hard landscaping. So what you’re basically 
doing is you’re making your garden bigger, visually. Well, yes, it does relate to the 
landscape beyond, but also it’s about feeling comfortable in its setting. It would feel really 
strange if it was purely rectalinear, you know, and everything works back to the house. So, I’m 
spending a lot of time in the house looking out into the garden and to the views beyond. So, they 
have to connect and that’s where I’m getting my inspiration, I would say. But the other thing 
that you’re doing, and which is important in a large garden in a rural situation, which is what 
we’re talking about here, is this gen….you know, there’s certain things that you can do by the 
house that would look stupid if you did them down the other end. So, you can plant certain plants 
close to the house; you have much more colour, you have much more non-natives, all that kind 
of stuff. And then as you get closer to the countryside, it’s basically just bleeding gently 
from one thing to the other. So you’re getting slightly cut grass, longer grass, wilderness, 
your woodland and everything. And what he’s doing, actually, it’s well worth looking at Joe’s Country 
Garden. Oh, nice plug. There we go – small plug on that one. Because you’ve got….that’s your video 
channel that you are charting your progress of your garden. Yeah, I just started gardening and 
doing it and making quite major interventions, taking trees out and opening up views, and 
changing the hard landscape. And I just thought, well I’ll film it for….I want to cover it 
for myself anyway. And then I thought this is actually quite interesting for other people 
to follow. It’s a genuine project and it’s interesting looking back. And I’ve got a drone as 
well. Yeah. Which I haven’t….like your drone. I broke my drone crashing it through a tree. It’s a 
long term project. I love gardening. I love being out there doing it. I’ve got tree surgeons in. 
I’ve had a couple of our landscapers come and live with me for a month, and do the hard 
landscaping and everything. So, it’s quite a big project. But I also am trying to keep it 
simple, because otherwise it’s a full-time job which I can’t do. And I think there are ways of 
doing that. I think there are ways of reducing the amount of maintenance, which I think we’re going 
to get onto, even though it’s a very large garden. But I’m still designing it as a cohesive space. So 
areas linked together, views from inside, all that sort of thing. But I love the creative side of it. 
I mean, when I go to bed it’s all going: what am I going to put there, how am I going to, oh I know 
I’m going to, I’ll put that tree there, or/and then you know I just….yeah, it’s very immersive. 
And that’s why I moved to the country. It’s tricky, a lot. I mean I went to see a garden the 
other day, and I made a list with the client: what they wanted, how it sort of worked, and we fitted 
all this stuff in. There was a whole lot left. And I said basically your garden is too big. You need 
to do something else with it. So then we come in with the sort of tricks that you’ve got – in that 
that will become a woodland, and it will become wild, and it won’t really become garden, sort of, 
become part of what’s out there instead. So you’re basically not just connecting to the landscape, 
the surrounding, but actually taking some of that and bringing that back into the garden at the 
same time. So low maintenance. Now, quite often if I mention low maintenance to garden designers, or 
particularly plants people, they get a bit sort of sniffy about it. But actually low maintenance is 
important in many ways. So what do you think about low maintenance gardens? Can we have one? I think 
that the important thing that everybody has to realize is that low maintenance is not the same as 
no maintenance. That’s the most important thing, because people people think, oh, low maintenance 
means they don’t have to do anything. Means I have to go and hoover it every so often. And you can 
have a garden that does that, but it’s basically concreted over, pretty much. And then you can 
sweep it. But low maintenance is a different thing. You can do that. We can do. I mean it’s 
a little bit trickier maybe to have in the countryside or in a larger garden. You can have 
bits of it that are very very low maintenance, because they’re left to grow wild to a certain 
extent. In smaller gardens and in cities, it’s a little bit trickier than that. Although 
the point you were making earlier about having big pots – one or two big pots rather than lots of 
little pots – that’s the sort of thing. I think, yes, I think being quite bold, you know, larger 
clumps of plants. There are….you know this whole grasses and perennials – the new perennial 
movement type of thing – it’s actually, if you get it right, you sort of garden with a pair of hedge 
trimmers rather than a pair of secateurs. But you’re cutting everything back in spring. If you 
planted a load of bulbs in the autumn, your bulbs come through, then your perennials and grasses 
push through. And if you’ve chosen them right, they won’t need staking, they won’t need feeding, 
they won’t need watering, and actually it’s quite a low maintenance way to go. I find I have to be 
very efficient with my time. I think it’s just the connotations of low maintenance. Oh, it’s like a 
roundabout type planting, or it’s all evergreens everywhere – which can be beautiful actually. But 
I think it’s often more an approach than choosing the right plants. But also this time of year, I 
just leave all the leaves down on the ground now. I spent years – I used to be a maintenance guy. 
Raking leaves. Raking, and then leaf blowers – oh, they’re the most annoying things in the world. 
But you’re raking leaves into a pile and then a big sort of wind would just come and blow them 
all away. But now, as long as they’re not on hard surfaces or on a lawn, just leave them. By spring, 
they’ve gone pretty much. The worms have taken them down. That’s a huge load of maintenance 
gone. Lawns, well, just let them grow. Relax a little bit. Get a robot. Get a robot. We both 
have robots. Swear by them. Yeah. Yeah. Robots are good. And then plant, you know, right plant, 
right place. So, if you’re planting in the right, you it shouldn’t need watering and feeding once 
it’s established. And planting in quantity as well. I think a lot of people dot things around, 
and there’s a lot of….they all love to see a bit of earth between plants. Why? It’s the worst foil 
for plants going. Just sort of pack your plants in – you know, perennials five to a square meter, 
so they knit together and cover the ground. Reduce weeding. And then also, mulching. Mulch, mulch, 
mulch – what a great word. The other thing that I find quite interesting, if you’re looking for 
low maintenance, look for the plants on the plant list that say that they’re thuggy. They spread a 
lot. And make something out of them. It’s like we were in Cornwall the other day at a garden that 
I’ve done, and that has a minimal maintenance. But it’s a public garden, so it needs to look 
reasonably good. And we’ve done that just by planting, you know, persicarias and phlomis that 
just spread like anything. And let them go. Let them be thuggy. Let them cover as much space 
as possible. And the other thing about it is, it’s about the attitude of mind. Don’t get too 
worried about it. Yeah. Nobody’s going to judge you on your garden. This is not the RHS Chelsea 
Flower Show. This is your garden. If you want to be relaxed about the weeding, then you be relaxed 
about the weeding, because nobody really cares. And then you just say it’s good for wildlife. 
It’s good for rewilding. I’m rewilding everything. Because I think people do get hung up on tidiness 
and control, and what a garden should be, and you know what their parents and grandparents….I 
think the younger generation are really exciting because they see a garden space as just somewhere 
to be sustainable, increase biodiversity, grow some veggies and some herbs in the corner. It 
doesn’t really matter. And I don’t think it does really matter. It’s whatever makes you happy. 
Yeah. Basically, whether it’s low maintenance, high maintenance, middle maintenance, what’s the 
other one? Their maintenance here – Horatio’s gardens are interesting, because the brief was 
to be high maintenance. You got, yeah, I’ve got 20 volunteers and stuff. They’re all going around 
saying things like stop cutting things back. We got to leave things. And there’s a head gardener 
in place. There’s loads of volunteers helping. And actually the brief was a relatively high 
maintenance garden which is full of flowers, full of bulb, full of stuff that’s constantly, 
you know, in these plants we put tulips in, hundreds of tulips in the autumn. And I’ve 
never had that brief before. But it is because it needs to….because the thing about Horatio’s 
gardens is that you cannot choose the day that you become ill. You cannot choose the day that 
you have a spinal injury. And so you need to be in this garden. Maybe you’re just here for the 
winter. Maybe you’re here in November, December, and January. The garden still has to look good. 
You can’t say I’m terribly sorry, come back in six months time. So, so that does involve a fair 
amount of attention. And we have head gardeners who are amazing. And we have volunteers who are 
extraordinary who come and do all of these things. So, there is always something. And we have quite 
clever designers – apart from Cleve West who’s a bit rubbish. And actually, that brings me onto 
what you cover on the show, because you’ve covered mental health – yes – and gardening. And 
that’s been one of your most popular podcasts, I’m thinking. So, basically we find a topic 
that we talk about for about half the show, and then we answer questions that people send 
in after that. From all over the world. From all over the world. We’ve gone global. We have gone 
global. We have a huge following in Arizona. And James does his terrible accent. So, if he’s from 
Arizona, James will put on his Arizona accent. He’s good. Your Australian, your New Zealand. 
My Australian’s not bad. Your North American is pretty good. My Somerset was complimented by 
someone. Your Scandinavian’s a bit weak. Don’t take the first one. It’s quite insulting. But 
it’s meant to be a bit of a podcast like no other in that we’re just having fun and we’re picking a 
topic. Like this week it was snacks or something, you know, garden snacks. So James gets to talk 
about biscuits for half an hour. But the one about mindfulness and well-being and importance 
of gardening – which we’re very aware of – that really hit a note actually. It was interesting 
because it’s my most serious. It was the most serious serious one that we did. I mean, it 
wasn’t entirely serious, but it was serious enough. Because it is a serious….it’s a serious 
topic, and it’s something that people have become aware of, you know, in the last sort of few 
years….is that gardens make you feel better. And here in Horatio’s, we sort of show that every 
day. And that patients will come out having gone through all the stuff that they have to go through 
in there, and get away from the smells and the noises and everything of a hospital ward – to come 
into a garden almost instantly you feel better. It is called Why Gardening is Good for the Soul. 
Oh, well, there you go. Is it that one? Must be. I haven’t got my glasses. The one after that. No, 
no, it’s that way, it’s that way. No, it’s gone. Hang on, I’ve got it here, called Why Gardening is 
Good for the Soul. Yeah, it’s that. That’s what I said. But you had a picture of Will Young in it. 
Oh, he’s everywhere. No, why? No, Will Young’s above there. Oh, that one. He’s pop culture meets 
potting shed. Why Gardening is Good for the Soul. Feeling low? Grab a trowel. So, Why Gardening is 
Good for the Soul will be the next video coming up next. It’s podcast from the James and Joe 
Garden Show. And thank you for watching. Goodbye!